NDP – OPS – PATROLS
North and West of A-4
Sgt. Barrows/others where were we when we found those NVA
guys who smelled sooo BAD? I recall we smelled them long before we saw them. I
think the artillery had killed them some days before and they sat out there rotting
and waiting for us to find them. We were told to take off their gear. I put my
gas mask on and still couldn't stand the smell. Guess I got a profile not to
take the gear due to extreme nausea. Malan
Yea they definitely had a severe case of BO. Evidently stood
to close to the impacting rounds as they came in. We could smell the
bodies from at least a qtr of a mile away. That was my first day’s introduction
to
I can't remember the COs APC hitting a mine that day we Found all the NVA
bodies rotting but I was sick enough of the smell I can't remember anything
else. If that was your first day in country the only thing you may have missed
was the rockets and mortars that were usual for breakfast. Malan
We were on a hellacious dismounted patrol the day
before. For some reason, we picked the hottest part of the day to go walking in
some of the toughest brush anyone could have thought of. JB was leading the
patrol, I still remember that Duffy kept saying, "what they gonna do, send
me to '
The next day, we went back to the Oasis, where we found 15 or so NVA in the
crispy critter mode. Some bodies looked like they were trying to ward the
flames away as if it were just raining, some were in running poses. It was an
awful sight and the smell was so bad, it had it's own
Apparently the NVA were waiting in ambush for us, and most certainly would have
wiped us out, had we had the energy to walk there. Pineapple
You sure this was the same gooks? These guys smelled
like about 3-4 days old and don't remember and burn damage. Pretty sure this was
artillery defcon stuff. Malan
oh yeah, it was napalm, you remember craters and blown apart bodies, or were
they all intact? I rest my case. Pineapple
Actually, it was hot as hell and the bodies were bloated,
but as far as the smell, it was the normal fucked up dead body smell that we've
all smelled before, They weren't 3-4 days old with
maggots or anything. Pineapple
The temp was way over 80 and they had begun to ripen. The guys had to collect
all weapons and ammo and strip the uniforms off of the bodies. We threw all of
the bodies in a bomb crater and covered them up. All of the shit we collected
was sent back to S-3 for them to analyze. I will never forget the smell.
Keith Eaton
I remember a time out round Con Thien or around there
somewhere on a NDP one night we had our one of our claymores stolen and in its
place was left a piece of paper with a poem on it about some river up north
somewhere, it goes without saying after that we became a lot more proficient in
our own booby traps making and for awhile there we would get one of those
little sneaks in the middle of the night. Do you remember what tank that got
all cleaned up and painted so nice? It was for some visiting senator or
something I can't remember' hell I can't hardly remember my own name sometimes.
Later.
Duke
Does anyone remember when the troop was operating around an abandoned LZ called
Angel (I think that was the name) somewhere up near Charlie 2 in late 1969 or
early 1970? One day the company dropped off around 8 of us from each platoon to
form 3 separate night ambushes. The rest of the troop then went back to
wherever and was going to pick us up the next day. I was with the second
platoon and carrying a M79. Our Sgt. was one that we called Paul Revere because
he always wore a patriot style hat. I can't remember his real name. Anyway we
formed the ambushes and had rendezvous locations in case we engaged and had to
leave quickly. I remember that the second platoon was just off a well-used
trail. Our claymores were placed real close to us. Luckily no one came by that
night and we all hooked back up the next day and waited for the troop to pick
us up in the afternoon. It was one scary night to be that far from our friends
with the ACAVs and tanks.
Bob Taylor
Ya Bob, seems REAL familiar...but I went on what seems like a lot of
ambushes...some were really scary, hell they ALL were scary. Just real lucky
they were mostly all just 'camp outs'!!!!!!!!!! I remember we did blow the
claymores one night when we heard voices moving into the kill zone and laid there the rest of the night scared shitless until we
could get back into the womb in the AM.
Bob Rebbec
John, I remember the night well. I can't remember if I was on the mortar track
or another scout track. The mortar track didn't run most of the time. I
remember that it was a badass place to be after dark. I think that we all hit a
mine or two. I was on the Passion Wagon, I think 23,
when me Scotty and Dierling hit a mine near Rocket Ridge. We had our scrawny
mustaches burned up, but no injuries. That was in July of 1969, one month after
I got in country. Because we were short on APC's, I rode on a tank for a while.
I believe it was 26. APC's don't fair well when the mine hits. It sounds like
we are going to have a bigger reunion this year! I joined the Society of the
Fifth Division and read the article from the chopper pilot but didn't connect
it with Wally. I also received the M48 and an ACAV model. It was interesting
hearing the story of Capt. Spruill and the War Lord.
Bob Taylor
John, I remember
Bob Taylor
I remember when we went on that big task force operation out
by Khe Sahn, then back through the Ba Long Valley in the summer of 1970. They
had a 175mm unit inside our perimeter while we were at the old Marine firebase
Van der Grift. One afternoon they were using the 175s to do H&I fire. They
were shooting into the wooded draws along a ridgeline to our west, probably
less than a mile away. One of the rounds must have hit right at the base of a
big tree. BIG TREE. Hard to say how tall it was, but
it looked like a tree that was 3 to 5 feet in diameter and 30 to 50 feet tall.
That big old 175mm HE round launched the tree straight up. Looked like a rocket
taking off from
Jim Good
One morning, Capt. Kaufman lines up the troop, line abreast
on the road between C2 & A4, facing west. It is a glorious sight, but it is
raining and we're looking at low elephant grass covering a sea of mud. He gives
the signal to "charge. The old 1-2 is slow to move. Everyone
else who does decide to "charge gets stuck. The troop spends the
rest of the day pulling tanks and tracks out.
(Pineapple)
While operating near LZ Nancy, Kaufman decides to lead dismounted "night
patrols into the jungle. It happens that he picks a succession of moonless
nights. No one can see. People have to have physical contact with the person in
front of them, and even then, the person in front of them often disappears down
unseen bomb craters. It is very slow going. One of these patrols gets
horrifically lost and opens fire on an ARVN outpost when Kaufman hears
Vietnamese voices and orders us to shoot. When the return fire sounds like
M-16's, we flee. The next morning, we discover that we have caused KIA and WIA
on an ARVN outpost. The night patrols are stopped, and nobody is the wiser.
The 1st platoon scouts are offered LRRP rations and camouflage fatigues if they
volunteer to make long range dismounted patrols out into the bush from
(Pineapple)
BR: "I dropped off the track like the experienced IDIOT I was (I'd been
in-country almost 13 months), took an M79 into a wash-out and ran smack into a
GOOK. The '79 chose then to miss fire! (lucky for me
really. We were only about 6 or 7 FEET apart!) The Sarg had followed me in ( which I didn't know) and covered me as I ran for my
life!!!!"
(Bob Rebbec)
Was that the day after the new troop commander took over
after CPT Smith? Would have been the summer of 1970 sometime.
If it is the incident I'm thinking of, the 2nd Plt was on the northwest side of
a stream, and sent some people in to check it out. The 3rd Plt was on the southeast
side. After you guys ran into the gook(s), I saw 3 of them in the open through
the sights of my Sherridan. Unfortunately, one of our 3rd Plt tracks was right
in line between me and the gooks, just downhill a bit, and the second platoon
was straight on beyond the stream. I wanted to fire up the 3 NVA, but the new
troop commander and my TC said not to. That was one of only two times in
(Jim Good)
A couple of unlucky NVA troopers, an RPG team, were crawling up to our NDP one
afternoon in July 1969 when we were working to the west of LZ Nancy doing
"blocking" assignments. Track 1-3 neglected to retrieve their
claymore ambush from the night before. Their philosophy was: if we aren’t going
nowhere (& we weren't because we were waiting for
a mechanic to install a needed part for my track) why bring in their stuff?
Ka-boom the NVA ran into the ambush. The rest of us thought that it was
incoming and dove for the dirt. 1-3 started firing wildly into the bush because
they knew what it was. To make a long story short, that night, when it was my
turn for guard at around
Drake was one of my first tank commanders in
(Jim Good)
Got an E- Mail at last. Even learned how to check it. Need to send Sgt Barrows the
history of the cav. We were talking the other day and we've both got stuff to
add (pages). Some you may not want to publish, but a lot is humor, like
One time on the Z we found a tunnel and using a tank jumper cable lowered Lt.
Canda down the hole with his .45 caliber pistol. Was really
steep. While he went to explore the hole, Dodds and me pulled up the
cable and let him sweat for a while, yuck, yuck. Malan
The entire troop was working one day on the Z, we were heading for a ridge line
and ran into muddy dirt and had to detour about 400 yards to the left. As we
were turning back to the ridge 5 or 6 large blasts went off on the ridge where
we had 1st approached the ridge. The NVA had set up claymores and would have
peppered us if we hadn't had to move to the left. Barky was in the air and
radioed he could see the NVA running on the other side of the ridge. The entire
troop pulled on line and opened up on the valley. We shot all of the main gun
ammo in the turret, called in air strikes with F4s, arty etc., When the smoke cleared a bit the CO told 1st platoon to
sweep the valley and 2&3rd stayed on the ridge. The 3 tanks were out in
front of the APC's by 30yds. or so. Barky or the CO
was talking on the radio saying we were about to run over the NVA we were so
close to them. I couldn't see anything but jungle thru the sight on A17 but
fired several canister rounds anyway. Sgt Barrows said the barrel was pointing
down when I fired and Bamboo and crap flew all over the place...he thought we
had been hit for a minute. After a couple of rounds I shouted to the loader I
wanted another canister round and got no response. I looked over and the loader
was gone. I ask Barrows where he was and he said "the back deck". I
told him to tell him to get back inside. He wouldn't get back in. I think this
was Dodds when he was fresh off an APC. Anyway I loaded and fired several
rounds myself. About this time an NVA stepped out from behind a bush and Sgt.
Barrows shot him 2 times with the .50 in the upper leg. The CO called down and
said if he was alive S2 needed prisoners. We pulled up beside him and he had
his hands underneath him as if he might have a grenade. We let him bleed for a
while due to this danger. In the meantime the 1st platoon had stopped the
sweep. Lt Canda's APC was to our right rear about 20 yards away and there was a
bomb crater between us. The Lt. dismounted and was walking around with his .45
pistol. I had left the turret and was sitting beside Sgt Barrows with an M16.
Sgt Barrows always kept his .45 under his .50 cal (use to tease him that the
only thing it was good for was to shoot himself to prevent capture) and I
suddenly see him pull his pistol and begin to swing it back towards the Lt.
Knowing something was up I followed his swing with the M16. As Barrows came
down just about in line with the Lt. I see an NVA crawling out of this bomb
crater maybe 10 feet or so from the Lt. Barrows popped him with the .45 and I
emptied the clip on the M16 in one burst...Poor Lt started shouting "it's
me, it's me!" as if we were shooting at him Yuck, yuck. Malan
Then there was the time Aug? The brains from higher up came up with the mounted
ambush. Three M48s sneaking up on the NVA and ambushing them...go figure.
Anyway we were south of
Last week when I was talking to Barrows he said he remembers
trying to crawl into his steel pot. It stopped after that 3rd round. It was
8-inch gunfire. I recall it was the South Vietnamese being trained that fired
on us. Barrows remembers it was our own guys. Either way it was a hell of an
experience. Malan
I can't remember where we were but we were out in the field somewhere and sat up the NDP late. We had fire support from a 4.2" mortar outfit that night. Sgt Barrows called the mortar group on the radio to request an airburst marker round so we could get them on target. A few minutes later we heard a THUD out in front of our tank. Barrows called the team to tell them that the round was a dud and ask them to repeat the airburst. That round worked perfectly. The next morning I went out to pick up the trip flares and there was a 4.2" high explosive round sticking in the ground about 20 yards in front of A17. We had all been sitting around on the top of the tank when it hit and surely would have been peppered if the thing had gone off. Those guys must have been hitting the booze or smoke pretty heavy that might. Malan
Pineapple after we got the Sheridans and Sgt Barrows started getting the short timers increase Sphincter tone syndrome we started letting some of the other tanks take point. I think it was SSgt Skolnzovch in his Sheridan that hit 2 mines in about 2 weeks. The 1st one blew him and his entire .50cal turret off his tank with him inside it. Seems the next one was sort of a dud. A W.P. round went off under his tank. Seems that someone had stepped on a mine during this same period while dismounted. If memory serves me this SSgt had only been in country for a short time. He would hang his butt off the side of the tank to take a dump so he didn't have to dismount. Malan
We were set up in NDP out towards the beach somewhere in the
middle of nowhere and as I recall only 1st platoon was there. I was sitting up
on top of the turret behind the .50 cal doing my guard shift looking at the
fireworks here and there when I notice a twin 40mm open up. It was a long way
off and looked like it wouldn't come close to us. I was watching the tracers
burn out different colors at different ranges and began to realize it was going
to impact closer to us than I first thought. The guns were still firing when
the first rounds hit maybe 60-70 meters out to the north of us and proceeded to
sweep his fire through the platoon and stopped firing a little south of the
NDP. After a few minutes (reloading no doubt) they started firing again and
sweep back thru the platoon. Don't remember anyone getting wounded, do remember
itching to squeeze off a few 90mm rounds to return the favor. Do you remember
where we were Sgt B?
Malan.
Jerry Are you talking about the time we were on the North side of the Cua Viet
River setting up our NDP and the Riverine Boat came down the River and was
firing the twins. Cpt Merk Merk called for the Mortar track to pop illum and I
was screaming No NO!! but they popped one and the Navy thought they had found a
good target, Us!! Everyone was up under the tracks while they were shooting the
Hell out of us. Finally got them stopped. That incident definitely stands out
in my mind!!
Sgt B
My 19 track was with me all the time. Don't ever remember calling for mortar fire except for one night we were called out to secure an AVLB that was stuck in the field (what is was doing I never had a clue!), but we were called out & set up a defensive perimeter. When it started to get dark they really didn't want to spend the night (I'm thinking we were at C-4 at the time, but not positive) so I had Sgt Lawrence fire illum so they could keep working. He fired every round they had and they finally got the damn thing unstuck. On the way back I got a call that there were friendlies in our area who had been sent out to back us up if necessary.
I had to tell my platoon
not to fire and we passed about a platoon-sized group of grunts that was going
out to set up an ambush in case Charlie showed up to see what the fuss was
about. Never did hear if they had any luck. I just don't remember having any
targets to use the mortars on. I think I used to hook it up with the 15 track
and use them as scouts. The platoon sergeant and I used to let men move tracks
or tanks if there was a need. I think I had an 11Bravo that became a tank
driver. Does anyone remember if that was Troy?
(Kershner)
Thanks six, I'd written what I knew about it, but as Jim said, we were just
pawns doing what we were told, never had a clue what the overall purpose was,
who else was involved or half the time, even where we were. Great to have the
big picture. One incident I didn't write in my journal (but I know happened)
and haven't heard anyone else reference, was the big perimeter fire that
happened on that big 5th Div. sweep where we had more of the 5th in the bush
than back at Quang Tri. Jim, (or Six) you seem to know all the details - still
envious of your memory - but weren't we real close to Laos on that one? Anyway,
someone's trip flare went off and lit up the elephant grass and the wind caught
it and we had to scramble to get as many claymores in as possible before the
fire got there. One track (tank?) was surrounded by fire and they used a dozer
to push dirt against it. We were beating back flames w/ our shirts and anything
else be could get our hands on. Wild & crazy night.
Skee
The big grass fire was in the Ba Long Valley, as we were returning from Van der
Grift & the Rock Pile to Quang Tri via the scenic route. The operation was
"Task Force 1-77 Armor" and it took place during the summer of 1970.
As you said, half the frickin brigade must have been on it. During the part of
that operation where the fire occurred, the artillery had already gone home via
QL-9, and the Cav, and I suppose most of 1-77 Armor and 1-61 Infantry along
with maybe some other support elements, were headed back through the Ba Long
Valley, then over some hills, and finally across the Quang Tri river near the
big bend south of the French Fort. We were out in that area for several days.
If I recall correctly, we had been starting fires during the day with WP to
clear out any cover that the bad guys might have used to set up ambushes
behind. I don't know if the wind changed direction at night after we set up the
NDP, or if a new fire was started by a flare or WP round while registering Def
Cons. It seems that at least one daisy chain of claymores went off in the fire,
though I don't think anyone was seriously wounded by it. Big excitement, that
night, however. After the night of the fire, I think we were still in that area
for a couple more days. There were some AVLBs that we used to cross a couple of
very deep streambeds in the hills when we continued back toward Quang Tri. If I
recall correctly, we spent at least one more night in the hills on the way back
before returning to the Quang Tri area. I know the 3rd Platoon stayed on a
hilltop over-watching an AVLB one night, and we had movement in the streambed,
and fired up the area with one or more mad minutes of machinegun fire. The next
day, the AVLB crews had a hard time raising their bridge because of all the
damage we had done to it with small arms fire the night before. That was the
first time that most of us had been anywhere near the Rock Pile, Van der Grift,
or the Ba Long Valley. At the trooper level, we really didn't know very much
about where we were, or what we might expect to encounter out there. We did
know that we were close to Laos, and pretty well out in Indian Country. Pucker
factor was rather high throughout that operation. LT Schorpp and I talked about
this operation when we were at the reunion last year in Las Vegas. Earl Schorpp
thinks that it was done as a dress rehearsal for the Operation Lam San 519 or
whatever that cluster fuck was right after the first of the year in 1971 when
the ARVNs went into Laos and got their clocks cleaned. There is a picture that I
took of that grass fire in my slides on the picture site, on page 3 of the
photo albums.
Jim Good
Dang you and that fantastic memory of yours!! You still
remember more than I ever knew in the first place!! - even if it is a
"refreshed by Lt." memory. Thanks a bunch for the info, I'll print it
and add it to my collection. As I remember, we went there at almost the same
time they were crossing into Cambodia down south with much success and the
general feeling was that we might be going to try the same thing w/ Laos - but
then after sitting around on our thumbs for a few days w/o the top brass
knowing the next move - which further led to the belief things were coming down
daily straight from God, the Pentagon or somewhere up high, we just packed up
and as you said, took the scenic route home. VERY anti-climatic!!
Skee
1st Platoon was guarding Hwy. 1; we were facing the Rock 2nd or 3rd Plt. was to
our left rear on another hill as you face the Rock. They were overran with NVA
and had to call for our platoon to fire on their position with small arms and
mortars. They had dug in and had constructed bunkers while located on that hill
for two weeks. Charlie was trying to dig into their bunkers that night. We
could see gooks running in the perimeter as trip flares were burning. Our
orders were to fire at anyone we saw in the light--for all our guys were either
in bunkers or dead. Our position got plastered by incoming rockets every
afternoon about 3:00 o'clock. One guy (Greg Sessions) from my track (12) and another
guy along with a FO were airlifted to the top of the Rock to spot the location
from where the rockets were being launched. Arty from FSB Vandergriff would
plaster them. Khe Sanh was an adventure and a nightmare! [Buddy Puryear]
Wally
Welcome to the Club. I was on 13 in Feb of 1969 when it hit a mine and I still
have two scars on my forehead and one across the bridge of my nose that reminds
me of that night almost everyday. I couldn't even wear a baseball cap for years
as it would bother me. That is one club I really never wanted to join, but
thank God I only got scared and didn't lose anything but alot of
blood. That was the first time I ever rode on a track that Lucky Lou Larson
wasn't driving and damn if I didn't get hurt. I only trusted riding with Larson
and Ken Dye after that night. I'll also never forget the reception I got about
5 days later when I returned to LZ Nancy from the hospital and all the Troop
saw me walking down the road to the front gate. They didn't know if I had lived
or if I got sent home and would never be seen again. That day really proved to
me that I was in a SPECIAL unit with the greatest guys you could ever serve
with. I truly felt that every guy in that unit was my real Brother, It's a
feeling I have never forgotten and thank God all the time for letting me have
it and still be here to appreciate it,
Peace, Rag
. You also were saying about land mines. One day i was behind one of our tanks on a convoy and he turned a
sharp turn and pryed a land mine out of the ground in
front of me. What a close call! Another time up at the D.M.Z. i threw a track on my A.P.C.. The Captain left me and a
tank there by ourselves untill i
got the track back on. When we where leaveing the
tank backed onto an anti- personel mine. I thought
that was the end of the line for us. I don,t remember
the tank number, but i remember that the sgt. was shot and served another year in Nam..
Big Al
Big Al The tank commander I think was Sgt D [Jersey]
Well said Jim.....it definitely was not a 'one size fits all'.
Been a few years, but if memory serves me correctly, this is how we conducted recon by fire when doing dismounted patrols in Viet Nam. Like I said, however, it has been a few years and some of the facts may not be 100% right about this particular tactic. . . … Jim
As you said it's been a while.......but what's this "we" stuff? I don't remember Tankers on dismounted patrols. That was the realm of the Infantry and Scouts. Bob
…don’t dis us tankers; after all, we kept the coffee hot while sitting behind the .50 cal waiting for you guys to finish your nature walks. Jim
I didn't mean to dis tankers. Having someone behind the .50 cal., keeping the home fires burning was very reassuring....Bob
Bob, if you remember it was always a tank that lead your platoon and usually took the mine hit. After the NVA got the mine to go off after the 2nd vehicle ran over it there were 2 tanks in the front. Sgt Barrows lead 1st platoon in our tank until he got damn short because he would not ask someone to do something he would not. Also you got better at spotting weird shit the more you were out in front. I remember shooting a case of M-79 in a single day leading and had a sore shoulder more than one night...have to say I loved that shit at the time tho. Malan
John, I always liked riding on your tank. It had the fastest firing and sweetest sounding .50 Cal in the platoon. Zero
Yep, went out on several myself like John said it was When Sgt D was in Hospital and we were at Cau Viet. I cannot remember the Name of the Sgt. that stood in for Sgt D I sure didn't care for him much. I remember one Night we were set up close to the River and a couple of new guys were out there with us one of them stood up and was shot by one of our Guys anyone remember that. Merle A28
Merle there was a black Trooper shot while on ambush by one of our guys but I can't remember Troopers involved. John.. Also a lot of Tankers didn't like him mostly because he thought tankers were babied. We did what he wanted but under protest. John
Joe I do know that we were a tight group of guys and did whatever was needed. We never really had a problem with what MOS one had only when the shit hit we were together. John
I know who you are talking about but I wasn't aware of any of the other conversations that went on. I know that I wasn't told anything and none of us got involved Joe
I do not recall any tankers being ordered out on foot patrols. I believe that some of the tankers went out periodically because they wanted to. Regardless the CIB was awarded only to those soldiers slotted in 11B, 11C, and 11D positions and Officers who were assigned to an infantry slot. As an armored cavalry officer my MOS was 1204 not eligible for a CIB even though I walked my fair share of foot patrols and the other soldiers on my track were 11D scouts. Just the way it is. Zero
Hey Coop, You implied your Tankers went out on foot almost interchangeably with 11B
& 11D or something to that effect. That MOS wasn't the first consideration. I understand and appreciate the willingness of all good Troopers to do what they are told....pitch in where need and all that. But the more I thought about what you said it seems kind of....well, like a poor leadership decision. The argument could be made that 'anyone' can do a patrol. Maybe so, but if you get hit then do they know what to do? I was always told
that's when training kicks in and 'saves your life or the life of your buddy'. There is no time for OJT at that point. BUT the real core of my concern is not the just Tanker out on foot mucking up.....it's ME an 11D trying to fill a Tanker slot if I had to. NO WAY
could I aim, load or fire the big gun. Have NO clue how it goes. Nor could I drive
one....at least I never did. We'd be well and goodly screwed with me on a Tank. Tankers were smarter than I am anyway, they did more complicated stuff, that's how I got 11D, and I almost ended up 11B!!!!! It seems a better idea would be to keep ones men where they know what they are doing. Putting and 11D on a Tank while an 11E was on LP makes no
sense what-so-ever in a combat situation. Bob 11D
John I was just an E-4 and did end up taking out a patrol or an LP or an ambush on occasion. BUT I knew how. I was trained for it and had some awesome "instructors" OJT-ing me early in my tour too. Put me on your tank and I'd just be in the way!!!!
Bad idea mixing things up to much...IMHO. Bob
I was an E-5 and I sure did not want to take out a patrol by myself. I would probably got us all zapped. John
Bob when we did go out with you guys it was a pain in the ass for you guys always telling us what and how to do things. Such as spread out, don't get to close, don't highlight yourself on paddy dikes. I guess there were a few more things but you guys did take care of us and brought us back in. John
Coop, Tankers going on foot patrol must have ended in late 1969. I heard some of the earlier guys say that tankers had been going on foot patrols, but the practice of doing that ended before I got there. It only made sense, because tankers didn't really have any training in dismounted tactics and operations in AIT like the 11B and 11D guys did. We did go outside the wire to set up claymore ambushes and trip flares, and from time to
time we would go away from the vehicles to check things out, but I don't remember any tankers from 3rd platoon going on an ambush, LP/OP, or any other formal dismounted
operation while I was there. It seems that I remember hearing something about tankers complaining that they did not get CIBs, and the brass said that men with the 11E MOS weren't authorized a CIB. The tankers then said, if we don't get a CIB, why should we go on a dismounted patrol? I guess that it was a hot topic shortly before I got in country in December 1969. I don't think that any of the tankers would have refused to go on dismounted patrols if ordered, but I sure don't remember any tankers doing dismounts on
a regular basis while I was there. Jim 3rd Pelt. Dec 69 - Nov 70
There was a discussion about it and that's about as far as it went. I certainly don't remember any 2nd platoon tankers on dismounted ambush. I also remember the discussion about the CIB and I think the final decision on that was if a tanker did participate then he could be put in for one. I don't recall that ever happening though Joe
Joe I was a Tanker and when I got to the Troop Sgt D. was on the Hospital ship and from what the guys said he was a Tanker and Tankers did not go out on foot. Ok while he was away we got a grunt PSG and he said we all were in a Cav unit so we all did what we were told to. I can't remember his name but I know when Sgt D. came back he went to the 1/77 and got killed by an RPG. He had us go out on mine sweeps and I went out with him on an ambush after losing an argument about tankers not going out and he said if he went we would and I did. We did argue about the CIB but they said no to Tankers. I
don't recall any Tankers going out on Patrols and when Sgt D. came back the 11b shit stopped. Did I leave anything out? John
Merle, Barrows and I were with him at Ft.Knox, but in a different company and I can't think of His name either. He requested to go back to 1/77 after "D" got back. It
seems to me he had an Attitude.
Hey there LT. The night we were hit while out on night ambush, Barnes and I were 11b10 two were tankers, and one was National Guard....go figure. Take care Wally
WOW two 11B E-3's? (11B-10 equals E-3. 11B-20 is E-4) The rest not even qualified to be out there???? That doesn't sound very bright to me!!!!!!!!!!! Who was patrol leader??? Who sent out a mix like that? Bob
Well John I sure didn't mean to scratch any scabs but you got to admit, from the information Wally provided it sounded like a poorly chosen ambush. No knowledgeable leadership and three guys with no business there in the first place. Bob
First I'd like to say that I believe most all of the line troops, meaning not supply or the mess group, were smart enough to learn most any of the jobs we had. I had never trained on tracks or tanks being an 11B but with some one on one and a little practice I mastered driver, loader and fired weapons I had never even seen before. Pretty much most of whatever we were taught in AIT did not apply in the real world. I pulled many an ambush with Ken Dye, Clarkie, Paul Schiano, Dan Lohman, and Frank Long from the 11th Cav and we worked as a team because we trained as a team in the field every night. We had our own system and everyone knew his job. We had our own hand signals and moves that became standard and we always knew what the other guy was doing and thinking. After all of the advanced party rotated back to the states I had a new batch of guys with me and I was now an ambush leader. I could have and did train everyone I ever took out on an ambush and had them right up my ass the first few times we went out. I was trained by the best and just passed down what I had learned or experienced myself first hand. If Wally went out with Don Barnes then he had a guy that knew his shit. I had well over 100+ ambushes under my belt by the time Barnes arrived. I pulled many ambushes with Barnes, Ronnie Baynes and Al Hall before I left and they knew their shit. Mike "Kid" Davis was also one of my regulars on ambush. I trusted my life with every one of these guys and I felt as safe as I do today sitting in my living room. Attitude and your willingness to learn and survive were as important as any training you ever received. The guys that came before you would teach you all they knew. You just had to be smart enough to pay attention, listen and learn. Your MOS didn't mean shit nor did your rank. I remember one time when we had one E6 and four E5's on the infantry track, A15, and we never once worried about rank. Everyone had a job and we all did what we were supposed to do. One thing about our Cav unit is we had guys from all walks of life, different age groups, almost every state in the union and just about every MOS you could think of. I can only speak for the 1st plt but I imagine that the rest of the Troop was pretty much the same. We were all in it together and we relied on each other to survive. I'd also like to say that shit burning was also my favorite. It sure beat the hell out of KP or perimeter guard duty. Peace, Rag
PS Bob, I don't think anyone took offense to your post but it sure did get a good conversation going. I'd also like to say that I didn't envy the tankers when they hit a mine and had to replace track and road wheels and that drive gear was a real ball breaker.
Bob, I did not imply anything with regards to Tankers and 11B; I simply stated how it was. During the period of time when the first group of Troopers were heading back to the states the Troop was under strength. We had tracks with as few as 3 or 4 Troopers, as an E5 I was tank section leader. It was during this time that I remember having to send Tankers out on ambush patrol - instead of sending an FNG out I went in their place. It was not a question of poor leadership or etc it was doing what had to be done to get the job done. Coop
Reading all of these messages about pulling ambush patrol and tankers not getting awarded the CIB is causing me to tell my story. As most of you know, I came to A Troop from the 11th Cav after my Squadron in the 11th Cav deactivated in February 1971. My MOS was 11E (tanker), but I was assigned to drive an ACAV because all of the tanker
slots in my platoon were filled. I told my new TC that I didn't know anything about driving one of those things and he just smiled and said, "Welcome to 11D." Well, being on an ACAV afforded me the splendid opportunity to go out on dismounted night ambush patrol every third night or so. I didn't pull as many night ambushes as Rag, but I figured I did at least 90 of them while I was in the 11th Cav for the first nine months of my tour. Hell, I found myself wanting to go on those patrols; I even was in charge of
several of them (as a SP/4). One day we were told the Regimental Commander was coming out to our NDP to give out some hero badges, so about half of the troops stood in a half-assed formation looking our best (as good as we could look out in the field, anyway). My first sergeant told me to get in the line of the men receiving awards, and when the Regimental Commander got to me he pinned on the usual Bronze Star, Army Commendation Medal and then a CIB. Right away, I'm thinking to myself that I'm an 11E and not authorized to wear the CIB. After the formation was over and all the brass left I corralled the first sergeant and asked him why I was awarded a CIB. He told me that
if a soldier works in an MOS other than his primary MOS for 90 consecutive days he is entitled to have that MOS assigned to him as his secondary MOS and can receive all of the awards that MOS is authorized. The first sergeant then gave me the necessary orders awarding me 11D as my secondary MOS along with orders for the CIB. I was stationed in the 2nd Cav in Germany after my tour in Vietnam, and I used to catch all sorts of shit from the officers and senior NCO's about wearing a CIB as an 11E. I got to the point where I carried around a copy of my orders and just whipped them out whenever someone questioned my CIB. I have to tell you though, if someone was to take away everything I brought back from Vietnam, along with all of my memories from that place, and just left me with my CIB, I would be extremely happy and proud because it is my most prized possession from that time over there. Just as a side note, the 11th Cav was different from most Cav units in that just about every swinging dick assigned to that unit was in the field. The only guys back in the rear were an NCOIC (usually an E-6 who
had been wounded), an armorer/supply sergeant, a Troop clerk and the cooks. However, the cooks came out to the field each evening on the resupply shithook with their hot chow, and they spent the night and cooked us hot breakfast in the morning. This was no problem since we were a self-contained Regiment. During my time with A Troop (three months) I think I went out on at least a dozen dismounted ambush patrols. Since I was an 11E I didn't have to go on those patrols, but I volunteered to go. I even went out
on a couple of three-day forward observer missions when we were around the Khe Sanh area. Hell, back then it wasn't nothing but something to do, I guess. Anyway, those are my two cents worth. Take care, J.T.
JT, I have friends who went to the armor school and were tankers -1203 MOS but were assigned to infantry positions in Vietnam and they were awarded the CIB because it was their duty position as was yours when you were assigned to a scout track. Zero
Lt I wanted a CIB but I didn't go out enough to deserve one. That is something earned not given to make you look good. A Tanker and proud. John
As for crossing MOS I don’t remember much of that at all. I think we were short a guy on the mortar track and they put a tanker or scout on the mortar track, and there may have been an 11B on a scout track or an 11D on the infantry track, but I don’t remember anyone other than a school trained 11E on any of the tanks. I suppose the way we operated changed over time, and depended on the personalities of the platoon leaders, troop commander, and the senior NCOs. The Cav was not a one size fits all experience; everyone lived their own wartime experience and has their own memories of it. Jim
Things did indeed change a lot over time. When I got to the Troop all of the original advanced party was still there maybe minus a few guys that had rotated back to the states. These guys had been together and trained together as a unit back at Ft. Carson so they really worked closely together for a long time before going to Nam as a unit. When we had the infusion with the 11th Cav this really shook things up. I was an 11B and I rode on and at times drove A15. I rode on the tanks a few times and even was a loader on occasion. Eventually I became the TC on A14 so I actually was in all three MOS's at one time or another and we had plenty of guys that did this. If one of the tracks or tanks were short handed we moved guys around to fill the slots. Rag
I was under the impression the last remnants of the Advanced party were still there in May of 69....what it may have been was the earliest replacements, guys like you Rag and the people a few months ahead of you. I know some of the guys that helped me the most early on rotated out in Sept. Oct. & Nov. To me as a FNG the guys in second plt. Seemed to have their shit in order. There was a hand full that seemed especially good and I was fortunate enough to be able to learn from them. But for some reason we didn't interchange tank/track personnel much. The tankers did their deal but the tracks were totally interchangeable. 11B or 11D didn't make a bit of difference. Usually a Scout drove the track but from there on it was like a combined MOS. 25 sometimes had a fifth guy but usually all tracks had just four. The scout tracks always just had just four. In fact, as I think about it, the only time even 25 had five people was when another track was down and they spread the gunners. Left the driver or the TC back with the track but the rest went out with the troop. Bob
Bob, I was TC on the mortar track as a PFC. Smitty took over around November of 69 and I went to driving it. I pulled night ambushes before 29 got running but after that mostly day patrols. At night, we were needed to man the tube. I think the most fun was as M79 man on a tank after 25 hit a mine. We didn't get a new PC for awhile so I rode on the tank. 29 didn't operate effectively until around Sept/ Oct of 69. They had to replace everything except the body to make it reliable. Before that it wouldn't make it 200 yards. Bob 2nd Platoon, 69-70
Bob, it was just you and Smitty on 29 then? Bob R
Jim Kuntz was on it too but I don't remember when he got there. He was 11C also. Smitty and I trained a new crew around May of 70 because we were leaving in June. I believe one of the guys was JD Holstien. Bob 2nd Platoon, 69-70
Things did indeed change a lot over time. When I got to the Troop all of the original advanced party was still there maybe minus a few guys that had rotated back to the states. These guys had been together and trained together as a unit back at Ft. Carson so they really worked closely together for a long time before going to Nam as a unit. When we had the infusion with the 11th Cav this really shook things up. I was an 11B and I rode on and at times drove A15. I rode on the tanks a few times and even was a loader on occasion. Eventually I became the TC on A14 so I actually was in all three MOS's at one time or another and we had plenty of guys that did this. If one of the tracks or tanks were short handed we moved guys around to fill the slots. Rag
Bob, I think most all of the advanced party, except for Coop, were gone by May and June of 69. The infusion with the 11th Cav sent us a bunch of guys with much less time in country as our advanced party so you probably had guys like me and some folks from the 11th Cav. I can remember as many as 9 or 10 guys on A15, the infantry track, at one time or another. I don't think we ever had less than 6 or 7 guys. After the infusion we got two E5's on our track, Frank Long and Kerry Pebble. Kerry eventually became the R&R NCO. His wife had a baby and he was a nervous wreck so Ken Dye got him out of the field. After the fragging in LZ Nancy, Paul Schiano from A15 became the Troop clerk when Coles and Jackson were killed. But like I said we were never below 6 guys on A15 the whole time I was on her. And we did move around. I rode on 1st plt Sgt Mac's tank a couple of times out in the field and I was on A13 when I got my first Purple Heart after we hit a mine. I can also remember driving A13 and A14 a few times before I became the TC on A14 with Al Hall as my driver, Baynes, Barnes and sometimes Sniper Tom rode with me. You were right that when a track was down usually the Driver and or the TC stayed behind and the rest of the guys went to other tracks or filled in for guys on R&R etc. I really believe that because we rarely worked together or as a whole Troop each platoon kind of did their own thing. I never served in any platoon except the 1st so I don't know how things were in the other platoons. I know that I would have done anything I was asked to do because we were a team and I had no problem working with or riding with anyone, other than Lt Fallon (Thunder chicken). He and Kaufman were the only leaders I didn't like much. But then again I was spoiled after serving under guys like Ken Dye, PSG Mc Neil, he was a drunken lifer but he knew his shit, Lt Canda and Lt. De Somer (Shadow). They were a great bunch of guys and it was an honor to have served with them. Rag
I was trained as 11C, but drove, M60 gunner, rode on tanks and was a mortar man. Smitty was a recoilless rifleman and did a bunch of different things too. It sure beats walking!!! Bob, 2nd Platoon, 69-70
I can't imagine 9 or 10 guys on a track. I saw it once when we were around the, was it first if the 11th Infantry?? Anyway, all they needed was a chicken or two to look like a Mex tour bus, people hanging all over. Sounds like you had an over abundance of NCO's too. As I remember it at least one track and often more had an E-4 in the TC slot most of the time. When Boshell and Hunter got to the Platoon in Dec. and Jan. of '70(BOTH those guys were as good as it gets!!! IMHO) they were the first E-6's I recall seeing on our tracks. The tankers always seemed to have at least a couple E-6's and a few E-5's. Bob Taylor ended up the motor track TC as an E-4 and did that for several months I think. As he said he was all over but mostly I remember him and Neil Smith on the motor track. I don't recall if they even had a third guy. Turtle was another M-60 gunner; we were on the same track quite a bit too. It was like shuffling a deck of cards much of the time. And yes we all did what was asked....mostly. I remember the one time I truly regret acting cowardly, when four of us tried to refuse to go on LP/OP/Ambush (whatever it was that night) when we went into the Bi Long Valley. We were scared shitless and convinced all the hills that surrounded us were crawling with NVA. I think everyone was convinced of that, not just those of us sent out that night. After heavy duty threats and VERY DIRECT orders from Lt Perrino we went....well one guy didn't but Zero made his threat good and sent him to LBJ. I think that night was the most afraid I've ever been in my life. Bob
It could get a little crowded for sure. We always had an ambush patrol so it was no problem sleeping anyway. Ken Dye was the TC and he was an E6. I was a TC as an E4 also but did get my stripe after a month or so. Had to face the E5 board before I could get the rank. I worst part about being on the Infantry track was we always were at the end of the column so we ate a lot of dust. But we had a great group of guys on A15 and we all got along really well, even with all the NCO's. We also didn't have a lot of turnover so we worked together for a long time. Rag
A Troop was official alerted for deployment to Vietnam on 25 March 1968. With only a 12 week notice, an intensive training program was initiated. A Troop took time out for Civil Disturbance Training and deployment to Washington D.C. in the time fame of March and part of April. A Troop (1st Brigade) concentrated its personnel and loaded its vehicles on railroad cars for departure to Southeast Asia in June 1968. The advance party of 1st Brigade 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) included most of A Troop 4th Squadron 12th Cavalry (which consisted of 5 officers and 220 enlisted men). They departed from Peterson Field in C141 Aircraft July 1, 1968. First elements of the 1st Brigade 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized) arrived in Vietnam 2 July 1968 and proceed to FABULOUS Wunder Beach in Quang Tri Province. The balance of A Troop departed with "Task Force Diamond" (1st Brigade 5th Infantry Division (Mechanized), directly to Da Nang during 22 - 30 July, the second largest airlift in history (at that point in time). With the 5th Inf being send to Nam despite not being ready for combat operations (that is one reason we sat on the beach for so long). It seems that the Division had been wrapped up in riot control and was behind in their training and in the outfitting of equipment to be used in Nam. So it was held back until sometime in September before the whole unit was declared fit for duty. According to "The Rise and Fall of an American Army" by Shelby Stanton (1985, Novato CA, Presidio books), the 5th I.D. (Mech) brought 1,072 armored vehicles with them. Once there, they received 140 APCs, 8 mortar carriers from Fort Hood and a total of 67 M48 tanks from Ft. Knox and the Letterkenny Army Depot in Chambersburg, PA. During the shakedown period, the division's readiness was complicated by the September monsoons which temporarily isolated the division on the wrong side of the Cam Lo main bridge. But the day was saved by aerial resupply. Some elements of the division came into enemy contact in August
January 1969
Most of the advanced party, including Swinny and Mills, were sent to the 11th ACR
11 July 69
Troy and W.P. left for the world; these Troopers were part of the original crew of A16.
16 July 69
LZ Angel Shadow comes up to tank and wants one man for AP; I went because 2 of my crew are on R& R and the third is new. This will be my first AP, out of eight men seven were first timers on AP. I stay awake almost all night.
19Sep
I am TC on A15 now (an old Tanker now a Grunt). Coop
I really wanted to be TC on A15. I had spent all of my tour up to that time on "Playmate and really wanted to stay with her. Dye, Larson, Clark and Long were all gone by then. Who was left on A15 when you took over Coop? Should have been Dan Lohman and a kid we called Preacher, Can't remember his name. I do remember Troy Gullion, Bill Wilson (Willie Pee), Jim Taylor, I still can't find these two guys, but I don't remember how I ended up on A14. Rag
There is only one way to get a CIB..
“my CIB is one of my prize possessions.” “my most prized possession”
“my CIB means more to me than anything”
Yup, the cav is special and A Troop most special of all!!!!!
And as far as I was concerned, my Cav brass and a unit patch on my right shoulder was at least as distinguishing as a CIB!
I do know that we were a tight group of guys and did whatever was needed. We never really had a problem with what MOS one had only when the shit hit we were together.
I always felt there should be a special MOS for Cav Troopers because we were a mix of 11B, 11D and 11E. We all crossed MOS's at one time or another